Episode 064 | Creating Safer Spaces Through Inclusive Healthcare with Mara Levy

Join us as Mara Levy shares their unique perspective, combining occupational therapy and somatic experiencing, to tackle body image issues and promote greater inclusivity within healthcare.

We're thrilled to bring you the latest episode of the OTGR Podcast, featuring an inspiring conversation between our host Melissa LaPointe and the phenomenal Mara Levy 🌈.

In this episode, we xplore Mara’s groundbreaking coaching program, which helps individuals overcome body shame and societal beliefs, melding cognitive and somatic approaches for transformative results. 

We also touch on the importance of inclusive language, addressing implicit biases, and creating safer spaces for marginalized communities.

Here’s a sneak peek at what you can expect in this episode:

• How to find joy and sustainability in creating content for your audience.
• A sneak peek at a unique coaching program, which combines cognitive and somatic approaches to help clients overcome body shame and reach their goals.
• A discussion on the challenges of entrepreneurship, where Mara shares their personal story of battling burnout in a high-pressure job, shifting towards a more inclusive and affirming private practice. 
• The importance of advocating for a holistic approach to health that challenges traditional notions linking body size to health status, promoting the Healthy Body At Every Size philosophy.
• Practicing inclusive language and the correct use of pronouns to foster a welcoming environment for all clients.

This episode is not just about professional growth; it’s a heartfelt discussion about inclusive and affirming healthcare that aligns with wider societal needs and individual identities. Thank you again, Mara, for the important work you're doing! 

Resources and Highlights:

To learn more about Mara’s approach to body positivity and self-acceptance, or to dive deeper into their work, go to Rainbow Spring Wellness https://www.rainbowspringwellness.com/

💬 Join the Conversation We’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode! Share your reflections and connect with our community on Instagram at @otsgonerogue

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https://www.otsgonerogue.com/

Thank you for being a part of the OTGR community. Let’s continue to inspire, innovate, and advocate for inclusive, transformative healthcare so that we not only know better, we do better.

Melissa & the OTGR Podcast Team

Transcript

Melissa LaPointe [00:00:06]:
You're listening to the OTs on Rogue podcast, where we inspire therapists to think outside the box and do things differently. I'm your host, Melissa Lapointe. My passion is in helping OT entrepreneurs have a bigger impact on the world while building a life they love and doing transformative work that lights them up. On each episode of the show, I'm gonna share tools and tricks to help you flex your entrepreneurial muscles and grow your business from the inside out. I wanna see more OTs step up as visionary leaders, change makers, and influential CEOs. So let's get started. Hey, everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the OT's Gone Rogue podcast.

Melissa LaPointe [00:00:55]:
I'm your host, Melissa Lapointe. Today's episode is a great example of where I am not only in the role of host, but I am also in the role of the student. And that is something that I reflected on a number of times throughout my interactions with this guest. So as we mentioned on the episode, we have worked together And after many of our calls and many of our Voxer messages, I was often prompted to do more reflection. And they did a great job of really opening my eyes in terms of the language that I was using, in terms of some of the presumptions that I was making. And now for someone who prides himself on thinking outside the box, this guest really helped me to think outside the box. So I adore my connections with them. They were very patient with me and really articulate in voicing, you know, sharing explanations and reasoning.

Melissa LaPointe [00:02:12]:
And, again, I have valued our interactions and our work together, and I really hope that that comes through in the episode that I'm about to share with you. Mara Levy is an occupational therapist, a certified lymphedema specialist, and a somatic experiencing practitioner. When I first connected with Mara, they were working with folks with a wide range of medical conditions, cancer, lymphedema, arthritis, fibromyalgia, brain injury, spinal cord injury, multiple sclerosis, to name a few. They were still in their Monday to Friday, 9 to 5. And over the course of about a year, I was able to witness this beautiful transformation where they continued to step into their zone of genius. They continued to take action on building their private practice on this journey of entrepreneurship, and they continued to follow their heart, which led to more niching down in a way that for many of us can be really uncomfortable. As per their website, they now offer fat positive, health at every size aligned, queer and trans affirming, antiracist, kink, and polyamory friendly, pagan welcoming, and generally anti oppression healing care from a licensed occupational therapist. I have learned so much in my work with Mara, and I am thrilled to have them join me on the podcast, so we can introduce some of these important topics to our listeners, and in future episodes, do a much deeper dive.

Melissa LaPointe [00:03:57]:
Alright. Let's do this. Alright. Mara, welcome to the podcast.

Mara Levy [00:04:09]:
Thank you so much, Melissa.

Melissa LaPointe [00:04:11]:
You are an occupational therapist. You're many things. I don't wanna be sticking you in a little peg hole right off the bat, but that's how we first got connected. And, actually, it was your work in terms of I I remember my introduction to you and the work that you were doing. I just thought, wow. She's doing such neat work with lymphedema, and, oh, have we gone. Like, how that has grown.

Mara Levy [00:04:39]:
Absolutely. I am doing even more now.

Melissa LaPointe [00:04:42]:
Yes. So let's start with when I first was introduced to your work, and then we're going to continue to add on some layers and bring our listeners on this journey because you are one of my clients. You are perhaps I don't like to say the you know, I never wanna put people in in and say the one I've learned the most from, but you're up there in terms of what I have learned and in terms of my own journey in opening my eyes and really working on my own stuff. So

Mara Levy [00:05:17]:
Thank you.

Melissa LaPointe [00:05:18]:
Yeah. So I I love the work that I get to do because, yes, I'm in

Mara Levy [00:05:21]:
a teacher role, I'm in a mentoring role,

Melissa LaPointe [00:05:21]:
I'm in a coaching role, but, oh my goodness, the people that I'm attracting, but, oh my goodness, the people that I'm attracting and how that impacts my journey. So when I look at how our relationship has evolved and even in the notes preparing for this, you know, like the lymphedema work that you were doing when we first connected and your background in somatic experiencing, how far we've come.

Mara Levy [00:05:44]:
Yeah. We have. We have, and I've really enjoyed it and appreciated what I've learned from you too.

Melissa LaPointe [00:05:49]:
Yeah. So let's start. Can you share a little bit more work about the somatic experience side of things and,

Mara Levy [00:05:57]:
you

Melissa LaPointe [00:05:57]:
know, how that translates into the work? Again, let's go back to when we first connected and more what you were doing in your 9 to 5.

Mara Levy [00:06:05]:
Absolutely. So in my 9 to 5, I am a occupational therapist lymphedema specialist. So I'm predominantly just working with people with swelling, which can be both the lower extremity wounds type of thing, but a lot of breast cancer survivors. And I'm involved in the breast clinic where the first day that clients come in to meet their entire health care team, They're meeting their surgeon. They're meeting their oncologist. They're finding out this whole overwhelming fact of I have cancer, and this is what we're going to do about it. And that is the day that I meet them. Usually, I am last after they have spoken to all of those people.

Mara Levy [00:06:49]:
And, yes, I talk about risk of lymphedema. Yes. I do some screening, get some baseline measurements of their arms so we can recognize changes later. But a lot of what I consider my work there as well is helping them stabilize, helping them get present, helping them get into a better place to be able to move forward with their giant work. And that is something that I did learn to be more intentional about as a result of the training I've been doing in somatic experiencing.

Melissa LaPointe [00:07:24]:
Mhmm.

Mara Levy [00:07:25]:
So somatic experiencing is an approach specifically for trauma, for issues that are active in the body, for all of the unresolved nervous system activation cycles that get stuck in the body. It was developed by Peter Levine and is very common among psychologists. You know, you see a lot of talk therapists, psych therapists, social workers in those trainings, but it is also used by a lot of body workers, a lot of massage therapists, and there are a couple of physical and occupational therapists that do the training very rarely. We are not the majority. I was the only OT in my training cohort. So when I met you, I had just finished my first of the 3 years of training, and I am now getting ready next month. In less than a month, I will be attending my first advanced training, which will be with a physical therapist.

Melissa LaPointe [00:08:26]:
Nice. Nice. And I remember during our discovery call, again, being really excited and curious about the work that you were doing with your clients, and then you got to the part about how much time you had with each of them in your 9 to 5. And how many opportunities there were for you to, again, in terms of body awareness and helping support them through the different changes that they were going through physically, mentally, emotionally with their different health challenges, with their diagnoses, with treatment. And I remember this feeling of, again, excitement, and, yes, you have so much opportunity to have such an impact on these people and with your work and your training. And my brain was exploding, and I was so excited. And then we got to the point where you started to talk about the constraints and how many people you were seeing in a day in your 9 to 5 in more of a traditional medical setting, and my jaw fell on the floor.

Mara Levy [00:09:37]:
Yeah. Because I have 50 minute sessions, which are scheduled back to back. So in an 8 hour day, I am seeing you know, of course, I have my lunch in there, and I have 9 clients that I have to fit into that. And then being overloaded with patients, being one of the few lymphedema therapists in the network, I am seeing people for an evaluation, and then their first follow-up is maybe a month, 6 weeks later. And I am very rarely able to get the intentional session by session, multiple times a week type of treatment plan that is really necessary for the type of work that those clients are needing and that I want to be able to do. So, yeah, I came to you for discovery call completely burnt out about having so much skill and not being able to actually put it in practice.

Melissa LaPointe [00:10:40]:
And I can only imagine with 9 clients with the type of work that you're doing in terms of protecting your own energy and in terms of transitioning between clients when we are, you know, you're doing hands on work in helping people process some really deep stuff. And to have to work with clients back to back to back, I to back to back to back to back back. I can only you know, in terms of your level of burnout and fatigue. And, again, so often, we have this vision for the impact that we want to have, but we are in a system where there are so many constraints and how we can think outside the box in terms of service delivery and what that might look like and this journey of entrepreneurship that many of us in our training never anticipated going on. We know you know, we never

Mara Levy [00:11:38]:
Absolutely never expected this. Yeah. Like In fact, I was very intentionally, no. I will never do that. That sounds like too much work.

Melissa LaPointe [00:11:45]:
Yeah. Well, and this again talk about this identity shift. You know, I'm not an entrepreneur. Right? Like, this story that we tell ourselves about what it even means to be an entrepreneur. And I think in part that is hardwired in our university training about what it means to be an OT entrepreneur, what it means to be an entrepreneur entrepreneur in health care.

Mara Levy [00:12:05]:
We don't do this for the money. We do it for the love.

Melissa LaPointe [00:12:08]:
Until we realize we can't pay for the software even to support connecting with the patient or the client because we are not generating revenue as business. Exactly. Our head and our heart it only gets us so far. We can have the best of intentions and, hey, like, I get it. I've been there.

Mara Levy [00:12:27]:
But we still got to eat.

Melissa LaPointe [00:12:28]:
Yeah. Well and we can support more people if we have a stronger infrastructure and we have a business that's not dying. You know, too often we jump in and think we're gonna change the world, but we forget that there still needs to be revenue. Even if you're nonprofit people, we still need revenue. We still need revenue.

Mara Levy [00:12:45]:
Not to mention from a burnout perspective when you're not panicking about how you're going to stay in business and pay the bills, you have that emotional space to bring to the clients.

Melissa LaPointe [00:12:55]:
Yeah. For sure. So okay. Tell me a little bit. We talked a little bit about your background in occupational therapy and then in terms of somatic experiencing. And you're another therapist that is making that transition and exploring what you're able to do as a coach. Yes. Talk a little bit about your intention.

Melissa LaPointe [00:13:19]:
Now I'm not I don't wanna get into the nuances between therapy and coach. You and I have had those conversations. We've had that conversation on the podcast. But in terms of what I wanna dive in with you is is the direction you're going in terms of niching down and how you, you know, how are you taking your skills and I know you're we're all still figuring this out. But how you're taking your skills and the work that you're doing in terms of 1 on 1 and group coaching, and the type of coaching that you're looking to do?

Mara Levy [00:13:54]:
So as a coach, I was looking at how can I use my somatic experiencing skills particularly? And I was looking for what is it that I really want to help people change that isn't therapy. And the thing that kept pounding in the back of my brain was about internalized bias, was about how we are programmed in so many ways to behave and do and think in ways that are not actually in alignment with our values and who we want to be as a person, and realizing how much of that is a somatic process, is a nervous system and brain wiring issue. So I was doing more research into what's already been done and realizing that this is really a neuroplasticity issue and a somatic issue. So I thought, let's do some coaching in that. And then, of course, internalized bias is far too vague and far too general to really be able to market. So I decided to go in a direction where I have lived experience and where I have a lot of passion, which is specifically on anti fat bias and size bias. So I am just this month launching a coaching program for fat acceptance, for helping people to be able to not just know that it's okay to have bodies of every size, but to actually get that into your guts. And I'm very excited to see how this grows and how it goes as time goes.

Melissa LaPointe [00:15:43]:
And, you know, as someone who's seen the behind the scenes of how this program has continued to evolve, and that is a gift that I don't take lightly in that my first introduction to these programs isn't the sales page or the program title or the copy in the emails. My first experience of these programs with with you and with my clients is that I get to see them evolve from, you know, the blood, sweat, and tears from these, you know, reflections and this journaling work and really peeling back the layers, a little bit of shadow work, and how we then start to pull pieces out that we can put more client facing and how, you know, getting really clear on the different features of the program that are in alignment with you and the type of work that you wanna do, but that will also be a good fit for your avatar, for your in terms of what you're doing with your niche. And many times as you were deciphering what you wanted to include in in this group coaching program, or I shouldn't call it group. This one you know, it's coaching, whether it's 1 on 1 group as that continues to evolve.

Mara Levy [00:16:54]:
And at the moment, it's 1 on 1, and I'm hoping as it gains a little bit more exposure to be able to develop groups as well.

Melissa LaPointe [00:17:01]:
And, you know, that's me jumping ahead because I can see the potential for the group. Right? Like, I just see so

Mara Levy [00:17:06]:
much will be great.

Melissa LaPointe [00:17:07]:
So much value for conversation. But when I first saw it, the very, very beginning, I was like, oh, this is really great. And then the second time, it was like, oh, this is really great, and I have a lot of work to do.

Mara Levy [00:17:22]:
How many of us don't? How many of

Melissa LaPointe [00:17:25]:
us don't have time to do? My own like, the second time was it the second time, it was all about me, and the third time you know, just so much thinking after our call. And I think the second time, it was more about how I show up as a coach and a professional in terms of outside, like, how I'm perceiving others and how I'm working with others. And then the third time was about me and or maybe it was vice versa. But either way, it was like each time we went through this program and you were talking about the intentions and what you wanted to do with it, realizing how much of my own work I still have to do. Right? And, wow, I'm gonna get this program up and running, and then at some point, I'm gonna sign up. And and that's the work.

Mara Levy [00:18:13]:
To have.

Melissa LaPointe [00:18:13]:
Right? Like, that's the work that you're doing. And to come up with these programs overnight, it doesn't happen that way because these, you know, there's so much work to be done and and not the traditional work in terms of study this video lesson on coaching development and then look at the features that you should include and go through my lesson on pricing and spit out a program. Like, it doesn't work that way. That's not You need that. You do. You need that. Second. Yes.

Mara Levy [00:18:45]:
That comes after you have the meat of what can I offer and what will actually do that work?

Melissa LaPointe [00:18:54]:
Yeah. But it's not a linear journey, is it?

Mara Levy [00:18:56]:
Oh, not at all. Yeah. I did a lot of the how to actually run a coaching program. I had done a little bit of that study as I was thinking, oh, I want to do some coaching. What will that be? And then I was really diving into internalized bias, implicit bias, how we change, how change happens, how this specifically applies to body image, and then going back to, okay, I have an idea of what I wanna do. How do I do this again? And going back in and restudying how to be a coach, taking some classes on how to do coaching specifically, which is so similar to what I already do as an occupational therapist, especially as someone who has used motivational interviewing as a standby of my practice for many years now.

Melissa LaPointe [00:19:47]:
Mhmm. Watching you know, as your coaching program and this may speak to people I tend to attract into my programs because you weren't just developing a program. You've been developing your brand. You've been developing your website. You've been developing your voice in terms of how you're showing up on social media. So it's not just this internal work. It's also this front facing work. And, again, this is the, you know, entrepreneurship, professional development, personal development on steroids.

Mara Levy [00:20:20]:
Absolutely. Learning all the things at once.

Melissa LaPointe [00:20:22]:
Yes. And that's been really exciting for me to see as well. So part of your bio, you know, you speak to the work that you're doing in terms of inclusion and in terms of, you know, I am anti racist. I am anti oppression. I am queer positive and trans affirming. And you're not just saying these things. You're doing the work. And you are one of the first people I've worked with that in early stages of entrepreneurship actually invested in a consultant to go through your copy and make sure that your wording and your messaging was on point.

Melissa LaPointe [00:21:00]:
Are you comfortable speaking a little bit about that and what you learned from that consultant?

Mara Levy [00:21:04]:
Yes. I am. Because, yeah, for me, anti racism isn't just something where you get to click off a box and say, I'm an ally. It was something where I know as a white person that it's not automatic that I am seen as a safe person. I know how much racism in the health care world and how the world in general really creates an unsafe space for people of color. And while I can't fix that for everyone, I can't promise that I'm going to be safe for everyone, I can make sure that I am doing everything in my power to make a safer space available to folks. So in addition to having been doing my own work on my own internalized racism for many years, it was important to me that it's not just my fairly educated, but still my white voice who is thinking, oh, how could I make sure that I'm not racist? Oh, I think I'm fine, but actually talking to affected people. So, yes, I found a consultant who is a who does anti racism and who does a lot of sensitivity reading and got her to look at my work and to look at my copy and to look at what I'm doing.

Mara Levy [00:22:28]:
And I was very flattered that she didn't have a ton of changes to make based on what I had already written, but it was really important to me that everything I was putting out into the world was as affirming and as safe as I could make it be.

Melissa LaPointe [00:22:44]:
Mhmm. So important.

Mara Levy [00:22:46]:
Especially with having my work be in somatic experiencing where being able to experience a felt sense of safety is absolutely critical to my work. Of course, I needed to make sure that I am doing what I can control to be safe.

Melissa LaPointe [00:23:05]:
Let's keep going with that and talk about your so in terms of your gender journey and, you know, that's something else that you have been really open with, and I am continuing to learn and be aware of my own language and, you you know, things that I subconsciously do. And I'm like, oh. But you've made it very I don't wanna say easy, but, you know, in terms of me saying, oh, wait a minute. Can I come back to that? I'm sorry. I you know, thinking about that after the fact, and you've made it like, you're very open to me and my stumbling and my learning as well, which is very appreciative. But speak so in terms of people feeling safe and, you know, again, we're speaking to individuals right now, but we're also speaking to health care professionals. Can you share a little bit more about your journey? And, also, you know, I'm hoping people can have some takeaways on what we can be doing as health care professionals in our own learning and being aware of what we bring to the table.

Mara Levy [00:24:12]:
Absolutely. So for myself, individually, personally, I was assigned female at birth and for many, many years, very comfortable with my identity as a girl and woman. And over the years, especially as I came out as queer in other ways, particularly bisexual style queer And spending more and more time in queer communities, I was realizing how gender wasn't quite feeling the same for me, and I was very much wanting gender to be something I could play with and experiment with, but not be something that is essential to who I am as a person. And the more that I really explored that. And my somatic experiencing work has really helped me with that because, of course, when you train in somatic experiencing, you also receive it. So the more that I was able to get in touch with my internal felt sense and what felt good and what didn't feel good, what felt affirming and something I wanted to explore more of, and what made me want to shut down a little bit more, the more I was realizing that the way that I was understanding my gender changed. So I'm not sure if it's that my who I am has changed or who how I understand myself has changed, and it's not really that important for me to figure that out. But at this point, I am describing myself as genderqueer, which means that I do not like to be called a woman.

Mara Levy [00:25:58]:
I don't like to be treated as a woman, not because that is a bad thing because it's, of course, a wonderful thing. Gender is great. Every gender is great and affirming, but it isn't fitting. So that doesn't feel like a fit to me. And, of course, man also does not feel like a fit to me. So genderqueer is very much about being able to explore gender, take different pieces from different parts of present presenting gender of how it presents, how it feels, what I do, both internally and how I engage with the world. And it is feeling more and more of a fit. And I'm also doing more of a pronoun journey there as well.

Mara Levy [00:26:48]:
Mhmm. So I have gone from originally using she, her, just because what else would I do to then saying she, they, and now I'm saying they, she. And in my personal life with people who I expect to be spending time with me again and again into the future, I am asking them to just use they with me at this point. So it changes.

Melissa LaPointe [00:27:14]:
What are some things as health care professionals in terms of the work that we are doing? So taking into account what you've just shared, and thank you for that, what is some, like, what are some things that no. In terms of me so let's let's bring it to me in terms of how I am engaging with my clients and potential clients and the work that I'm doing to make it a safer environment and being more open to other people's gender journey.

Mara Levy [00:27:50]:
Mhmm. So, of course, one of the big things is pronouns, is when someone tells you their pronouns, being able to get to the point of using them consistently. So when someone says it is this, getting to the point where you can use that set of pronouns consistently. And if you get it wrong, you don't have to make a big thing out of it. You don't need to spend the next 5 minutes apologizing. But when you catch it, oh, sorry, they moving on.

Melissa LaPointe [00:28:20]:
Mhmm.

Mara Levy [00:28:20]:
So just the quick notice, correct, move on is generally what is the second best to just getting it right in the first place. And there's a lot of resources out there for practicing changing how you see pronouns and making it easier. Of course, the biggest thing is just practicing, rehearsing. Mhmm. So that's one, but it is not sufficient. Another thing that really helps for me as a non binary, genderqueer person is having having things just not be shared, having gender not be the thing that we talk about. So not talking about this is something women experience, but this is something people experience, which, of course, gets more inclusive to everybody. You know? So when we are not specifying it is a this gender thing, but in everyone thing, the more we can include both the people who do not feel comfortable be with the category of woman, but also people who are men, people of every gender.

Mara Levy [00:29:32]:
So that's a thing that absolutely does help as well for just feeling like you are included.

Melissa LaPointe [00:29:39]:
You

Mara Levy [00:29:39]:
know? So instead of this is a thing for women or this is men and women, ladies and gentlemen, but just this is people. Mhmm. And so that's something that helps for me.

Melissa LaPointe [00:29:51]:
You're speaking to the founder of the OTs and Women's Health Group. Right?

Mara Levy [00:29:59]:
I forgot that.

Melissa LaPointe [00:30:02]:
So my brain is I'm like, Like, which that's something that I've thought of. You know, I have a self paced program getting started in women's health. I know that there's a lot of work being completed in terms of community of practice within AOTA, but around the world, what people are doing in women's health. And, you know, this is what you have to do to get people in the door versus continuing the conversation. And, you know, that's something that I have struggled with but have addressed. So even in my getting started in women's health, what does that mean and how we can take that, work and continue it, and, again, around being inclusive and what that might look like. But this is ongoing. Right? Like and I and I've questioned that.

Melissa LaPointe [00:30:50]:
Like, OTs and women's health, how what is that all about and what does that mean? And, you know, the work that we do and women's health itself is not niched down, but many people think that it is. Well, it's not. And I I don't know what the answer is. And Yeah. It's just, again, highlighting how much work there is to be done in being inclusive while standing out with a niche and cutting through the noise and really finding your people where we can't talk to everyone.

Mara Levy [00:31:26]:
No. Of course not.

Melissa LaPointe [00:31:28]:
But we also yeah. Just that awareness, and you never have it figured out. Like, no.

Mara Levy [00:31:33]:
Of course.

Melissa LaPointe [00:31:34]:
You never have it figured out. This is such a, you know, such an ongoing process.

Mara Levy [00:31:40]:
And one thing that I would challenge folks to consider as they're doing that thinking process is really looking at what specifically are you looking at. So even niching down from women's health, but are you looking at pelvic floor health? Well, everyone has a pelvic floor. So if we're talking about pelvic health, that is a different thing than saying women's health. You know? Are we talking childbirth and post childbirth care? People of many genders have children and bear children. Is that what we're talking about? Is it pelvic health, post birth health, and breast cancer health? You know, I have 2 people on my caseload right now who are cisgender men with breast cancer. Mhmm. Yeah. So it's really looking at what is when you say women, what are what is that shorthand for? Mhmm.

Mara Levy [00:32:40]:
Because frequently, that is a shorthand for a lot of different things.

Melissa LaPointe [00:32:45]:
Mhmm.

Mara Levy [00:32:46]:
And that is something that helps with feeling included is what exactly are you talking about? Are you talking about people with specific body parts or people with specific experiences or people who were raised being known in a certain way or people with a certain hormonal profile. And all of those are slightly different things. Mhmm.

Melissa LaPointe [00:33:14]:
For the OTs and Women's Health Facebook group, we're over 5,000 people, so I can't change the name. Like, it it won't let me, but I am gonna share this podcast as a resource and talk about we have work to do, people. Just to gain, I think, you know, awareness, conversation, curiosity, learning, you know, being comfortable asking questions and having discussions without feeling defensive or feeling stupid or feeling entitled or feeling like, all these pieces. And isn't that what health care is all about? Is this lifelong journey in terms of personal growth and professional development?

Mara Levy [00:33:51]:
Absolutely.

Melissa LaPointe [00:33:52]:
Let's so when I look on your website and, again, I love your I love your website. I love your colors. You know, it's so exciting seeing it because I, again, saw the inside out process. So these are some things that you have listed in bullet point. So I am queer and genderqueer. I am mid fat white xennial. I am ADHD powered. Love that.

Melissa LaPointe [00:34:11]:
Cancer survivor, mostly non disabled. Yes. That is

Mara Levy [00:34:16]:
what I say.

Melissa LaPointe [00:34:17]:
Speak to that a little bit about including that, you know, Let's just peel a layer back on that in terms of including that and why that's important.

Mara Levy [00:34:26]:
So I include that as a way of sharing my positionality around ableism being another huge problem in health care, and I share that about myself as a way of saying, I get that this is a problem. I want you to know where I am coming from. So if you decide whether I am safe for you, this you know that about me. I say mostly non disabled because, you know, I have some chronic health problems. I have chronic problems with fatigue. I have my ADHD, which is generally controlled, but does do a lot. I have my cancer history. So, you know, there are ways in which I am not a 100%.

Mara Levy [00:35:14]:
It's mostly done disabled. And, of course, disability is in many ways a societal structural issue where it's how well do you fit into the world and how well does the world fit who you are and how you behave. So, you know, heck, someone could say that my delayed sleep cycle is a is a disability in some ways with how challenging it is to just get out of bed for a 9 to 5 every day.

Melissa LaPointe [00:35:43]:
I hear that. But, again, coming back to the superpower, when you know? Raise your hand, people, if some of the best work you've ever done is between 12 and 2 AM.

Mara Levy [00:35:55]:
My hand is wide

Melissa LaPointe [00:35:56]:
up all the way up. Like waving Waving enthusiastically. Absolutely. Alright. So coming back to your bio. So other bullet points. So anti racist and anti oppression, which we touched on. Queer positive and trans affirming, which we touched on.

Melissa LaPointe [00:36:14]:
Fat positive, and health at every size aligned. So health at every size and then in brackets, h a e s aligned. Can you share more about that?

Mara Levy [00:36:24]:
Health at every size is an approach to how we think about bodies and health and fat that covers many, many areas, but the name sort of sums it up where every size body is capable of being healthy. So it is very specifically saying that your number on the scale, your BMI is not enough to say anything whatsoever about how healthy you are because every size per there are people who are very healthy at absolutely every size on the scale, and there are people who are very unhealthy at every single size that's on the scale. So I think that this is something as health care providers where our whole raison d'etre is to help people become more healthy, where that's what we are here for. It is really essential for us to not conflate people's body mass, people's fat percentage with what their health status and what their health needs actually are. Okay.

Melissa LaPointe [00:37:48]:
Which sounds like common sense.

Mara Levy [00:37:51]:
And yet.

Melissa LaPointe [00:37:52]:
And yet. You know, I coming from a family where all the women in my family, you equate health with a number on the scale. Mhmm. And you equate

Mara Levy [00:38:05]:
health family is

Melissa LaPointe [00:38:06]:
you feel and your self worth and and and with the number on the scale. So I say so normal. Makes sense. But, you know, on the flip side, again, the subconscious programming that comes into play and, you know, the internal reactions and the internal responses, I can't cognitively you know, that's inside at work, and it's hard work.

Mara Levy [00:38:37]:
100%. Absolutely.

Melissa LaPointe [00:38:40]:
Okay. Next bullet point. So the next few and this is something I still I still remember. So sex positive, kink friendly, polyamory friendly. Why was it important for you to include that in your bio?

Mara Levy [00:38:56]:
Because those are areas where there are so many underserved people and I want them to feel safe with me because there are so many people who the way that they do their sexuality or the way that they do relationships ends up making them feel less safe in a healthcare provider's office. If you are polyamorous, if you have more than one partner, it can be scary to talk about, okay, well, this is how my relationships affect the issue that we are here to discuss. You know, if we're looking at nervous system processing and stress response when someone is kinky that has a different perspective on how that's all going to look for them in terms of their, you know, lived experience. And so being able to say, you can be your whole self with me. You can be a person who has any kind of sexuality. You can be from asexual to hypersexual. You can talk about it with me. You don't have to.

Mara Levy [00:40:05]:
That's not the essence of the work that I do, but the people who live that way are welcome and are going to be understood with me.

Melissa LaPointe [00:40:17]:
And then pagan friendly.

Mara Levy [00:40:19]:
Yeah. That is another thing where in a very Christian centric society, people experience a lot of othering. So being able to say, yes, you can talk about how you do religion, you can talk about how you do spirituality, and you're with somebody who can get it and can affirm that. And we can use those structures in how we talk about things.

Melissa LaPointe [00:40:51]:
There have been times on some of our calls or listening to you know, going through some of your content, doing audits, where I have gone back and googled some terms to make sure. Like, I think I know what this means, and it's I love it. Like, I I you know, just again opening my eyes to a different world, to different language, and reminding me how much, you know, how much work there is, but just, again, lifting my head up out of my own little bubble that I like to think is a big bubble because of the online connections. I have people all over the world in my circle, but it's still a little bubble. So, you know, popping my head up. And that time where we were talking about what we were doing, I think, next weekend or in a couple of weeks, and I had made reference to a camping trip. You know, I'm going camping in the mountains, and you made reference to Kinky Witch Camp. And I I remember, I'm like, pause.

Melissa LaPointe [00:42:00]:
Can we just pause for a moment? I will add on extra time at the end of our call. Can we just, like, pause for a second and, like, let's stop the recording. I need you to let me into your world for a little bit here because your world is very different than my world. And, it's, again, such a good reminder to, you know, pop our heads up and look around and be open to other people's experiences and continue to do that reflection on how we may be bringing our own experiences, our own biases to the table without even having that awareness.

Mara Levy [00:42:33]:
Yeah. And there are so very many ways of being human, and we don't all get to see all of them. And I think it's important for the folks who have less common and less mainstream ways of being human to also have their people.

Melissa LaPointe [00:42:48]:
Mhmm. Yes.

Mara Levy [00:42:49]:
And when we talk about client avatars, my client avatars are almost always the weirdos. They're almost always the people who live outside the mainstream in one fashion or another.

Melissa LaPointe [00:43:01]:
That's exactly you read my mind where I wanna go next. So figuring out your niche, your offer, establishing yourself on social media, when you're trying to figure this out and you finally feel like you've nailed it, but yet you're still talking into a void. And can you speak about the speaking about the personal journey when you feel so connected to these heartfelt messages, but you're not sure yet if someone's listening because the reality is you are at the early stages.

Mara Levy [00:43:33]:
I am, and my social media is not large as these things go. You know, I'm still very much in the process of getting established. It's scary. You know, it's very it's a very vulnerable feeling, especially as someone who lives outside the mainstream and is aiming at people outside the mainstream. It is exposing to be like, alright. I'm gonna say these things, and hopefully, my people find me before the haters do. So far, they have. Yeah.

Mara Levy [00:44:04]:
And you're always wondering how much of myself do I expose versus not expose, how much do I make it about me versus making it about my clients. And I'm absolutely still figuring out all of that balance.

Melissa LaPointe [00:44:21]:
You hit the nail on the head in terms of, you know, it is scary. And how often we do have to dig deep in terms you know, you and I have had this conversation about being the lighthouse, and your people are out there, and you can't stop shining that light, imagining that light, you know, going back and forth and flashing. And you may have that person who is, you know, on their little boat just waiting to hear your message. And just as you're, you know, swinging over towards them, you're just about to hit them, you decide to make yourself small and swing back, or you decide to turn the light out altogether. And, literally, they were so close to hearing you, but they just didn't hear it yet. And that's something that so many of us, especially as we're learning who our niche is, what our offer is, you know, and what we wanna talk about that lights us up, that is also serving our people. Such a challenge in the early days of entrepreneurship, of visibility, of audience building, that's the heart like, that's some of the hardest work that you have to do as an entrepreneur because you're not getting that connection yet. You're not getting that connection yet.

Melissa LaPointe [00:45:28]:
You're not getting that affirmation that you're on the right track, that people value what it is you're saying. You're speaking into a void and taking some of your deepest, darkest, heaviest work and turning it into content that you can put out on social media and for it to not, you know, to not have that that connection. And as you said, you know, making sure you're really wanting to find your people before you find the haters. It is such courageous work that we don't often talk about enough and that we don't give people in the early stages of entrepreneurship enough credit for this really hard work.

Mara Levy [00:46:06]:
Thank you. And that lighthouse metaphor has really helped me, especially because I never wanted to be a social media creator. Like, I never wanted to be an influencer. That is not the thing that brought me to entrepreneurship. That has never been my motivating factor is the affirmation and the likes and the comments. Although, I mean, I love them. They're great. Mhmm.

Melissa LaPointe [00:46:27]:
Dopamine. That's Of course.

Mara Levy [00:46:29]:
Yeah. I love the dopamine, but that's not why I do this. So being able to just keep putting myself out there is remembering the why is so important. Remembering why I am doing this, which is that there are people who need what I'm offering, and they're not going to get it unless they find me, which means I need to make myself findable.

Melissa LaPointe [00:46:55]:
And creating content that you enjoy creating. I I can't remember the context. I just remember one of our conversations. You know, you can be in a pool with a pina colada if you want. Like, you know, really encouraging you and reminding you that the kind the type of content. Yes. And this is the the back and forth. Yes.

Melissa LaPointe [00:47:16]:
It's for your avatar. It's for your followers. It's for your audience, but it also has to be for you. And if you're not creating content that you enjoy creating, it's not sustainable. Why are you doing it? And the sky's the limit. We can really do some creative thinking on what that means, but I think that's a key piece to that sustainability is to enjoy the con now there's always pieces to content creation. You can enjoy it the first time, but then once you get down into the editing piece and, you know, posting and yada yada algorithms, do you feel you're enjoying the content you're creating a little bit more? Is that something that you feel you're starting to lean into?

Mara Levy [00:47:56]:
I'm starting to get there, and I'm finding that the content I'm really enjoying is not always with the one that I expected, but it's fun. The video I had the most fun making and has also been by far the one with the most views and the most interactions is one where I just put on a crop top, and I jiggle my belly at the camera and say that anyone who wants to wear a crop top is who gets to. And that one was just fun to make. It was defiant. It was putting myself out there in a way that is also intended to bring affirmation to everyone else who wants to put themselves out there and be afraid. And I am very comfortable with being the one who is weirder so that you feel okay putting out your weird.

Melissa LaPointe [00:48:51]:
Love that. As we work on wrapping this up, one thing I wanted to circle back to was your coaching program. So we touched on it, but let's put the spotlight back on that coaching program. Can you talk a little bit more? So who is that coaching program geared towards, and what would be some of the outcomes? What are you hoping to help them achieve with that coaching program?

Mara Levy [00:49:17]:
So what I am really hoping to achieve with that program is people being able to be okay with their bodies, is people being able to feel neutral or positive about how they exist in the world so that that is no longer a distraction holding them back because we all have the things that we want to achieve in the world, that we want to do, that we're here on this earth to be able to do. And body shame is so is holding so many of us back, just not being able to be comfortable with our body as it is, with our body as it doesn't meet these arbitrary standards that society has set. So being able to get to the point where we can let go of that shape, we can let go of that internalized bias against fat so that we can just be okay with our body as it is. And that's people with every size body because I know small bodies and large bodies all deal with this shame, especially people who were raised as women. But, really, everybody has had to deal with this shame. And I want freedom from shame so that you can do what you wanna do.

Melissa LaPointe [00:50:38]:
And what are some tools that you hope or plan on using within this coaching program to help people get to that point in their journey?

Mara Levy [00:50:48]:
I'm using a combination of cognitive and somatic work. So cognitively, there is just learning that people can do. There and there are a lot of resources out there, so this is not something where only I can provide it. There's so much information, though, on both why losing weight and getting healthy are not the same thing and how losing weight is not directly resulting in better health. There's so much on how did we even come to the point where as a culture we believe that fat is bad or fat is unhealthy, and how there are actually a lot of really racist origins to how we got there and a lot of eugenicist origins to how we got there. And so there's just that cognitive piece of why it's okay to let go of those beliefs, but that only addresses the head. So also doing the somatic work, being able to experience what's happening in your body, being able to rewire when I think about my body size, being able to separate out those thoughts from the feelings of shame, and being able to bring in the nervous system wiring. It's being able to rewire the same way we do neuroplasticity from a stroke.

Mara Levy [00:52:17]:
The more we practice the patterns of positive thinking, of neutral thinking, of releasing the thoughts we don't want to have and bringing in the thoughts we do, the more we can increase our exposure to the beliefs we want to hold and to the attitudes that we want.

Melissa LaPointe [00:52:38]:
I've seen many coaching programs, the inside of many coaching programs and the outside. I've participated in many. And when someone is creating something, you know, there's the downside at times to being a trailblazer and to being, you know, in terms of that industry disruption and and a change maker. There could be challenges at times to that, in part because is there a demand for this type of service? Is there a demand for this offer, for this program? And what's unique about your work is that I I don't see any other programs out there like yours, but I also know on so many levels of my being that there is a need for this work. There's a need for this work in terms of individuals. There's a need for this work in terms of health care providers, in terms of their own personal journey, but also in terms of their interactions with clients. And coming back, you know, we didn't touch today on your in terms of your work as an activist, but on a societal level. You know, there's there's a lot of work.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:44]:
You're going to have no shortage of work in your lifetime. We'll put it that way.

Mara Levy [00:53:48]:
That is true.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:49]:
Yes. So okay. Let's wrap this up by letting people know where they can find you. So if they have someone who may be interested in your coaching, in your work, if they themselves are interested, How do they reach you? Where do you hang out? Can they give you a follow, a like? Do you have a really fun looking newsletter? Fill us in.

Mara Levy [00:54:14]:
So I am Rainbow Spring Wellness pretty much everywhere. My website is rainbowspringwellness.com. You can sign up for my newsletter there. You can take a fun little quiz where you are finding strategies to help settle your nervous system right now, so quick fixes to hold you over until we can do some larger work. And you can find information about my coaching program. You can find information about my occupational therapy work on rainbow springwellness.com. And then I also own the Facebook page and the Instagram of Rainbow Spring Wellness. I am not super active on those, but I post here and there.

Mara Levy [00:54:58]:
Yeah. And the bulk of the social media that I put out right now is on TikTok, where I am also, Rainbow Spring Wellness.

Melissa LaPointe [00:55:07]:
Continuity. I love it.

Mara Levy [00:55:10]:
You know that's why I chose that name in part.

Melissa LaPointe [00:55:13]:
Thank you for your time. And thank you for sharing today. I think that there were many, many topics that we touched on. This is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. And, you know, you and I had talked about doing a series and what that might look like because, again, I you know, there's so much potential to go deeper as health professionals, as therapists in this work, and how to do so in a way that's supportive. Because as we go deeper in this work, our own stuff comes up and making sure we have a safe place to process that. Yeah. Because it really is, you know, growing from the inside out.

Melissa LaPointe [00:55:51]:
And so often we take this on, we think it's for our clients and it's not. Or, you know, we think it's for ourselves and then it highlights the work we have to do with our clients. But we are all human beings and, yeah, this is an ongoing lifelong journey of learning.

Mara Levy [00:56:08]:
Absolutely. It has been a pleasure to get to talk to you today as well, Melissa. You are a blast to chat with us always.

Melissa LaPointe [00:56:15]:
Yes. I know. We so so many opt and I mean, we do record our calls, but not we don't record our calls for other people to listen to. So this was

Mara Levy [00:56:25]:
fun. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Melissa LaPointe [00:56:27]:
Okay. Take care, and we'll chat with you soon.